ACTIVISTS DEMAND CHARGES AGAINST MAN WHO SHOT, KILLED 2 SUSPECTED BUGLARS
05:19 PM CST on Monday, November 19, 2007
Houston community activists are demanding charges against a man who shot and killed two burglary suspects in Pasadena.
On Monday, they held a protest in front of Joe Horn’s home on Timberline.
“Mr. Horn did not have to kill those men,” said Quanell X. “We believe that Mr. Horn became judge jury and executioner at the same time.”
Horn’s actions were recorded during his call to 911.
Horn claims the men he shot and killed had busted into his next door neighbor’s house.
The shots he took followed repeated warnings from the dispatcher not to go outside.
“Had this black man been on the phone the same way, he would be under the jail and not see the light of day,” said Quanell X.
Robert Hammons lives in the area. “I think they’re the ones turning this into a racial matter, it’s not racist.”
Another neighbor said the shooting had nothing to do with race and that Horn was only trying to protect his family, which he considers to be this entire neighborhood.
But Horn’s actions have ignited a criminal investigation, and could cost him his freedom.
11 News tried to reach Horn through his attorney, but Horn was not available.
He is reportedly still crushed about the incident.
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LINKS:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f3d_1195171937
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4dc_1195205938
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STILL NO CHARGES AGAINST PASADENA MAN WHO KILLED SUSPECTED BURGLARS
10:06 AM CST on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 
Click to watch update
HOUSTON — A man who told police he planned to kill two men he believed were burglarizing his neighbor’s house shot them only when they came on his property and he felt threatened, his attorney said Monday. Tom Lambright, who represents Joe Horn of Pasadena, said his client was just going to take a look around when he went outside after hearing glass break at his neighbor’s house. He had seen Miguel Antonio DeJesus, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30, crawling into and then out of a window.Horn went outside, armed with a 12-gauge shotgun, to see where the burglars were heading when he came face-to-face with them in Horn’s front yard, Lambright said.Horn is 61 and heavyset. The suspected burglars were young and strong enough to beat him to death with their bare hands, Lambright said. So when one or both of them “made lunging movements,” Horn fired.
Joe Horn
“He’s trying to protect his own life,” Lambright said. “He’s scared.”
Pasadena police were still compiling their report on the shooting and planned to present the case to Harris County prosecutors within the next two weeks, police spokesman Vance Mitchell said Monday. From there it is expected to be presented to a grand jury. In the meantime, Horn remains uncharged.
Lambright’s description is partly at odds with the 911 call in which a dispatcher urges Horn to stay inside his house and not risk lives.
“Don’t go outside the house,” the 911 operator pleaded. “You’re gonna get youself shot if you go outside that house with a gun. I don’t care what you think.”
“You wanna make a bet?” Horn answered. “I’m gonna kill ‘em.”
After the shooting, he redialed 911.
“I had no choice,” he said, his voice shaking. “They came in
the front yard with me, man. I had no choice. Get somebody over here quick.”
Diamond Morgan, Diego Ortiz’s widow and mother of their 8-month-old son, told a Houston television station that she was stunned by Horn’s comments on the 911 call.
“It’s horrible,” she said. “He was so eager, so eager to shoot.”
Local activist Quanell X urged authorities to prosecute Horn.
“Mr. Horn did not have to kill those men,” he said at a news conference last week outside of Horn’s house. “We believe that Mr. Horn became judge jury and executioner at the same time.”
Horn “literally went to pieces” after the shooting, Lambright said. He issued a statement a few days later saying the events would weigh heavily on him for the rest of his life.
He’s doing better, however, as he reads letters and e-mails and hears radio broadcasts of people supporting his actions, Lambright said.
“I’m not going to tell you that he still doesn’t regret what had happend,” Lambright said. “He just said ‘Tom, I had no choice. I had no choice.
“He’s right in that. He really did not.”
It could be a difficult case to prosecute in Texas, where many
people have little sympathy for criminals and an almost religious belief in the right of self defense.
Texas law allows people to use deadly force to protect themselves if it is reasonable to believe they could otherwise be killed. In limited circumstances, people also can use deadly force to protect their neighbor’s property; for example, if a homeowner asks a neighbor to watch over his property while he’s out of town.
The question will be whether it was reasonable for Horn to fear the men and whether his earlier threats on the 911 call showed he planned to kill them no matter what, said Fred C. Moss, who teaches criminal law at Southern Methodist University in Dallas.
“That’s what makes it so hard and that’s why we have juries,” Moss said.
http://www.khou.com/news/local/crime/stories/khou071126_tnt_burglarshooting.41772f2e.html
RELATED LINKS:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1cc_1196418746
UPDATED 12/4/07:
http://www.khou.com/news/local/stories/khou071203_jj_internethornshootingpasadena.644668d9.html
UPDATED 12/5/07:
http://www.khou.com/topstories/stories/khou071205_jj_pasadenarucksjoehorn.6edb5175.html
Ann
I believe that this guy should really get some jail time. If his life was not in danger and if he was not protecting the lives of others, there was no reason to shoot.
Of course he broke the law, and should do some jail time.
But he also took out the trash.
And ANYONE defending these two scumbags simply because they had brown skin, is the real racist.
“And ANYONE defending these two scumbags simply because they had brown skin, is the real racist.”
No one is defending the accused burglars.
“But he also took out the trash.”
Yes, these two men were seen by Horn leaving the neighbors home in an alledged act of theft.
But, that does not make them trash, anymore than it would make Horn trash.
this guy should get a medal. only wish there had been a few more bugs to exterminate. mr. x needs to find a better reason to come out from under his rock than questioning the actions of horn; how about stating for the record that the thugs should have thought more about the fact that there was a good chance their choices could lead to negative consequences?
You’re quite wrong, Ann. Burglars ARE trash, and these two losers got exactly what they deserved. He didn’t break the law. He defended his neighborhood.
The two accused men were not trash. Neither is Horn for that matter, trash. No human is trash.
“He didn’t break the law. He defended his neighborhood.”
He did break the law. He was instructed by the police dispatcher to remain inside and allow the police to do their job. His going outside created consequences he will have to live with.
Just as the accused burglars made a decision to enter the neighbor’s home, so too, did Horn make a decision by leaving his property. Texas law gives citizens the right to protect themselves when *they* are under attack. Horn was *not* under attack.
“this guy should get a medal.”
No.
He should be indicted for manslaughter.
“how about stating for the record that the thugs should have thought more about the fact that there was a good chance their choices could lead to negative consequences?”
Yes,the accused men should have thought of the consequences of their actions. So too should Horn have thought of the consequences of his actions.
He will have to live with those consequences for the rest of his life.
People are entitle to their own opinion but not their own facts. Joe Horn shot two unarmed petty crooks in broad daylight off his property because he was angry over thievery. It is time for pro life religious leaders in our community to step up and condemn this shooting.
You have to love the “caring and concerned” that turn into lawyers like ANN.
911 operators are not Police Officers, therefore he was not told by police not to go outside; they are city employees with little legal or police training.
There is such thing as self defense and luckily in Texas we do respect that and it eliminates “manslaughter”. If you fear for your life you can exercise your right to defend yourself.
Where I come from crowbars can kill you and if any of these guys had one they become a threat and you can do what is deemed necessary. I could care less what color the guys were you defend yourself. What is scary is that this wouldn’ be an issue if they had bashed someone’s head in while robbing the house.
Yes, Mr Horn will live with this all his life, but his neighbors will sleep better tonight.
By the way Ann, anytime you want to post your address online with the quote “I will not hurt burglars, murders or rapists in the event you decide to come to my neighborhood or home” Grow up, today’s burglar is tomorrows violent offender.
“I could care less what color the guys were you defend yourself. ”
No one commented on this post about their skin color. You brought that up.
The case still has to go to the grand jury (and yes, it will be up to the GJ if manslaughter, or whatever the charge will be levied against Horn), and they will decide the verdict on Horn’s actions. He may or may not be no-billed, but, it remains to be seen how the Texas judicial system will handle this case, and what the ramifications will be for future scenarios such as this.
“There is such thing as self defense and luckily in Texas we do respect that and it eliminates “manslaughter”. If you fear for your life you can exercise your right to defend yourself.”
As a native Texan, I respect the right that I will defend myself if harm comes to me in my home, on my job, in my car. I will not put myself into harm’s way when I am not under direct, confrontational attack. I have been in situations where I did pull out my weapon and defended myself. When pushed, I will protect my life.
“Where I come from crowbars can kill you and if any of these guys had one they become a threat and you can do what is deemed necessary.”
According to the tape audio, Horn was not under threat of attack, therefore his going outside to confront the alleged burglars put him in harm’s way. Whether they had crowbars, guns, knives, etc., Horn endangered his own life going out of his home to confront the accused burglars.
“What is scary is that this wouldn’ be an issue if they had bashed someone’s head in while robbing the house.”
But, the accused burglars did not bash anyone’s head in. If they had harmed anyone in the house, they would have faced murder/attempted murder charges, in addition to breaking and entering with intent to commit habitation/burglary charges.
“By the way Ann, anytime you want to post your address online with the quote “I will not hurt burglars, murders or rapists in the event you decide to come to my neighborhood or home” Grow up, today’s burglar is tomorrows violent offender.”
Now who is being childish. Please, grow up, okay? I will defend myself against anyone who illegally enters my home, car or job to cause bodily harm to me. I will use deadly force. As a citizen of Texas I still have that right.
Criminals breaking and entering my home will be endangering their lives. Criminals entering my home gives me the right under the laws of the state of Texas to use deadly force against them, without having to think about excessive “retreating” in my own home.
On the other hand, I will not leave the safety of my home to go outside of my home and endanger my life.
I will make use of 911/dispatchers to let them know that someone/persons are attempting to illegally enter my home.
Set foot across my threshold, then you, the criminal have taken your own life into your hands.
Not everyone who is born and raised in Texas is a trigger-happy person. Some of us can exercise common sense in defending ourselves. Some of us are capable of not running out into the path of imminent danger.
Some of us do value our lives and the lives of others.
Russ Johnson
Someday when you leave this earth be sure to tell the Good Lord what a swell guy you thought Joe Horn was and see what that gets you.
Joe Horn is now seeking money for his legal defense fund and he will need it. After the criminal proceedings will come the wrongful death law suits. Not know what that means? Ask OJ.
The two men made a decision to commit a crime; crime can cause people to die. Fortunately it was them and not some innocent person. A few other things you guys need to know about that phone call and being told to not defend yourself.
1. Police have no duty to protect individuals. Many laypersons do not know this. Internet Search Phrase: police have no duty to protect. There’s more: they cannot always arrive with a life-saving response time.
2. The Citizen is already in authority to stop a crime in progress. Sometimes, it’s all you have. Your weapon and your authority. Incidentally, that’s all Police have, too: their weapon and your authority. Unless something has gone terribly wrong in this country, when we gave authority to police, we never gave up any of our own.
3. The Target is the first line of defense. Refusing to be a victim is more than reasonable, it’s lifesaving. No law can or will ever change this dynamic. You are the first line of defense.
Also remember that these two men were stopped from committing more crime which could have taken the life of the innocent (maybe even yours or your loved one). If Quanell-X wants to blame someone for the two deaths it should be himself for his continued support of the criminal element in the black race instead of the heroes and successful. Stop the race bating. Stop the HATE.
This guy had already decided to kill these men before he even called 911. I don’t even know why he called 911 to tell them he was going to commit murder.
“He defended his neighborhood”? Really? He even stated that he did not know the neighbors whose house was broken into, he knew the others and he would have definately done something if it were the others. Doesn’t sound like the leader of the neighborhood block party.
You don’t have the right to defend your neighborhood, your neighbor, or your neighbor’s property. Only your own.
This guy was advised a dozen times not to go outside. I don’t care who it is that tells you not to go outside, they are being the voice of reason in the situation when you call 911.
Listen to the tape. From the time he went outside till the time the cops came, it was 40 seconds. If the cops had shown up just 40 seconds earlier, then we might be talking about a dead cop. If the guy did not murder the suspects, then 40 seconds later the cops would have arrested them.
In Texas, you have the right to use deadly force if yourself, your family, or your property is in IMMEDIATE danger. None of these were true for Horn.
Plain and simple, if Horn would have let the cops deal with it, which would have only taken 40 seconds, the criminals would have been apprehended and dealt with according to law.
To those wanting to “take out the trash”. Are you suggesting that every arrestable offense end with the murder of the offender? Hell, I bet that would get rid of about half the posts here.
To the person that wants to send the guy a medal, may i suggest metal. Metal handcuffs, metal bars.
Maybe Quannell and other race pimps like him who make a living off of stirring up racial tension should condemn the two scumbags who made the decision to intrude on some else’s private property with the intent to steal their property.
The FACTS in this case, which may be incovenient to the Race Pimps, will clear Horn of any wrongdoing. With people like Quannell X around we’ll never see the “color blind” society that the late Martin Luther King Jr. dreampt of.
ann… your criminal loving view would be much different if these guys broke into your house while you were home and attacked you.
“oh, but they didn’t attack anyone” i’m sure you would respond.
Well, who is to know what people will do next… I bet Sean Taylor and his kid and girlfriend now wish he had a gun and shot first rather then grabbing his machete. And his house was just getting burglarized right??
There are stories every week where people are getting shot at convenience stores, banks etc even AFTER cooperating with criminals in a hold up. A young woman in Hamtramck MI was shot in the forehead just for her pickup truck which the carjacker crashed and ditched hours later. Should she have cooperated and just done what the criminal said?? Well she did and look where it got her.
Enough coddling these lowlifes.
I’m 27 and have yet to do anything harmful to anyone elses property or health.. its not that hard. These criminals make this choice knowing the danger involved… or really, knowing they’ll likely get away with it because of people like Ann who feel sorry for them and make laws to protect THEM.
We work hard for income and get taxed.. then we use that to buy something we deserve and earned… and get taxed more. Then Ann’s boyfriend comes and breaks our windows and takes it…. we then pay for the window repair… and of course are taxed on that… Then we all pay taxes for the cops to come and arrest Ann’s boyfriend only after he does it 10 more times to 10 other families… we pay taxes for the prosecuter and the city court workers. And then we take time off work to give our statements. Lets not forget the time off for the repair work, alarm system install. Then IF he gets convicted, we of course ALL pay for him to watch TV and lift weights all day. Oh and don’t forget the increase insurance bill for you.. and decreased property values for you and your neighbors.
You’re right Ann.. poor guys. All they were doing was taking some stuff right.
KP:
“race pimps”.
Explain what a “race pimp” is.
“With people like Quannell X around we’ll never see the “color blind” society that the late Martin Luther King Jr. dreampt of.”
From my readings of the writings of Dr. King, he never spoke of a so-called “color-blind” society. He spoke of a society that accorded humanity to the content of all citizen’s character. He never spoke of a society that still continues to delude itself with the belief that people’s differences are to always be a bone of contention. Dr. King spoke of an American society that ACCEPTED people’s differences, yet also accepted people’s capabilites and the chance to prove themselves just as intelligent as the next person, regardless of race.
I suggest you read Dr.King’s “Letter From a Birmingham Jail”, and “Why We Can’t Wait”.
Both essays are still just as relevant today as they were over 40 years ago when Dr. King wrote them.
bill:
“ann… your criminal loving view would be much different if these guys broke into your house while you were home and attacked you.”
Your reading comprehension skills are obviously below the level of a third-grader. Please, calm yourself down, and cease your raving illogical ranting.
Now, go back and READ my comments above, again.
I did state that a person can defend themselves when they are under attack from criminals. They have a right to use deadly force when their life is threatened.
“oh, but they didn’t attack anyone” i’m sure you would respond.”
And you would not only be wrong in your ASSumption, you would also be very stupid.
Once again, read my last comment again, and this time, read it with a clear head not full of irrational off-kilter faulty logic.
“There are stories every week where people are getting shot at convenience stores, banks etc even AFTER cooperating with criminals in a hold up. A young woman in Hamtramck MI was shot in the forehead just for her pickup truck which the carjacker crashed and ditched hours later. Should she have cooperated and just done what the criminal said?? Well she did and look where it got her.
Of course people lose their lives whether they cooperate or not. People’s lives are taken daily whether or not they cooperate, and that is not their fault.
Whatever the situation that presents itself in that person’s life right then and there at the time of attack, they will do what they feel they can handle in that situation. Some resist to their utmost; some live through the situation, some do not.
Some people do not resist and cooperate fully, some victims do survive, some victims do not survive.
Each of us will have to assess and react to the intent of any criminal who attacks us. People will react in the best way they know how, in the best way they can save their lives. Therefore, no one has the right to condemn a person who cooperates. If running in the opposite direction presents itself, and you are on foot, then by all means use that. If someone attempts to make you get into their vehicle, then use the best defense you can: fall to the ground, curl up, if possible grab hold of a street sign and hold on for dear life. In the end, no matter what some people may do/or not do, they may still lose their lives.
Faulting the young woman as if it was her fault because she cooperated shows your lack of humanity towards her. She did what she thought was best in that situation.
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“Then Ann’s boyfriend comes ”
“Then we all pay taxes for the cops to come and arrest Ann’s boyfriend ”
“You’re right Ann.. poor guys. All they were doing was taking some stuff right.”
MODERATOR:
Due to your racist, hateful and inflammatory remarks, you are banned from my blog.
revotenow:
“Police have no duty to protect individuals. Many laypersons do not know this. Internet Search Phrase: police have no duty to protect.”
Explain how the police, who are trained to protect the citizenry against criminals have no “duty to protect” the citizens. Present your evidence, research and proof of this.
“they cannot always arrive with a life-saving response time”
Common sense would imply that the police cannot arrive immediately on the scene a la “Beam me up, Scotty” style.
“The Citizen is already in authority to stop a crime in progress. Sometimes, it’s all you have. Your weapon and your authority. Incidentally, that’s all Police have, too: their weapon and your authority”
Citizens have the right to defend themselves when THEY are under attack. A criminal attempting to rob, rape, or murder you has given up his/her right to life, and citizens can and should protect themselves from loss of life.
“Unless something has gone terribly wrong in this country, when we gave authority to police, we never gave up any of our own.”
Intelligent people know that citizens have NOT given up their right to defend themselves against criminals seeking to attack and harm them. It is possible to have BOTH the police to serve and protect as well as for citizens to defend themselves in their home, their car, their business or on their job. It is still possible to chew gum and walk at the same time.
The last time I read various laws on the books under Texas law, citizens STILL have the right to defend themselves against anyone who attempts to bring life-threatening harm to that citizen.
“Refusing to be a victim is more than reasonable, it’s lifesaving.”
No sane, reasonable person is asking for citizens to be victims. Ignorance of the law is no excuse if one uses deadly force that is not warranted. Horn was in no way under attack; he used excessive force where there need not have been any. Of course the cops could not spontaneously materialize on the scene; only a fool would think such a thing were possible. Unless the laws of physics have changed, police do have to leave where they may be (patrolling) and arrive as soon as they can to the scene. Horn should have waited for the police, but, he chose not to.
“You are the first line of defense.”
Yes, if you do not step over that line without provocation. Horn gave up that right to his “first line of defense” by leaving his home.
“If Quanell-X wants to blame someone for the two deaths it should be himself for his continued support of the criminal element in the black race instead of the heroes and successful.”
Your racist statement is bringing you close to bearing banned from my site. Unless you know every black citizen in Houston, you have no right to state that Quannel X is “supporting the criminal element in the black race”. Since you made this comment, state your proof where Quannel X “supports criminal elements in the black race.”
The purpose of the laws we all live under are to protect the rights of everyone.
EVERYONE.
That means the right to defend ourselves (citizens) and the right not to take the law into our own hands (Horn), as well as the acceptance that we do STILL have the police to detain/arrest and if (and there are times when it does) when it becomes necessary for the police to take the criminal down if they resist and seek to further harm citizens or the police. Believe it or not, laws protect everyone. YOU may one day want the protection of those laws which you obviously have contempt for. If you find yourself in Horn’s place, you may wish that you will be exonerated, and not possibly tried and convicted for flagrantly spitting on the laws which were enacted to protect BOTH sides of the fence: criminals and citizens.
1. Citizens against harm by criminals.
2. Criminals who still (the last time I read) have due process of law, when arrested. Unless the U.S. Constitution as well as state laws have been changed, WE ALL have the same rights under the laws of the state of Texas, as well as the United States Constitution.
The purpose of having the right to bear arms does not include flagrant disregard of the laws we all live under.
The right to have a weapon (legally licensed, of course) does not give all citizens the carte blanche right to shoot because we have those weapons in our possession. The right to own and use weapons does not give us free rein to shoot just because we were fed up with reading about crime in the newspapers, because we had a gun and were just itching to try it out on someone, ANYONE; because we had a bad hair day; because we woke up on the wrong side of the bed………………..BECAUSE…………..shoulda, coulda, woulda………………..
The use of arms is to be a last resort, not the first aim.
There is still the understanding that REASONABLE FORCE should be the first line of defense.
If all else fails, then and only then, do citizens resort to the use of DEADLY FORCE.
Ann and those who think like her are retarded. Joe Horn will deal with the consequences of his actions, whatever those might be. He made the choice to shoot these guys just the same as they made the choice to rob someone.
Should he have shot them? Maybe not, but he believed he should have and stood up for what he believed in. Maybe they got more punishment than fit the crime… but too bad, that is the risk you take when you do something stupid like that.
In any case there are plenty of legitimately innocent victims of violence and other crimes that you should be wasting your time online defending, not these 2 unfortunate morons.
“Ann and those who think like her are retarded.”
MODERATOR:
Chris, you are banned from my blog for insulting remarks. When commenting on a blog, remember not to use disparaging statements. Having an issue with a stated viewpoint is one thing; attacking the commentor only lessens your viewpoint.
“On the other hand, I will not leave the safety of my home to go outside of my home and endanger my life”
Then your a coward.
Tell us Ann, would you leave the comfort and safety of your own home to stop a fight? A mugging? A rape? Only if its on your property, aye?
“Present your evidence, research and proof of this.”
This coming from a person who states with authority that a 9-11 operator is a “police dispatcher” and thus Joe Horn broke the law. 9-11 dispatchers are NOT police officers. Retraction?
“Common sense would imply that the police cannot arrive immediately on the scene a la “Beam me up, Scotty” style.”
He didn’t say ‘immediately’ . He CLEARLY said ‘life saving response time’. Who has the reading comprehension problem?
For historical perspective, in 1900 , an unamed hurricane roared through Galveston and killed over 6000 people. Men were caught looking under the dresses of dead women. They were lined up against a wall and shot.
Personally, if it was me, I would have ordered those two on the ground and if they resisted, knee capped’em. But that guy was scared I’m sure. No jury, unless it’s stacked with grievance ridden blacks, will convict him.
Ann, seriously, you make me sick. You make me sad to be an American. Joe Horn is a hero, A HERO! If we all had neighbors like Mr. Horn, you would see the crime rate drop DRAMATICALLY. Guaranteed.
I will send Joe Horn money for his defense if needed. I’ve got an idea. Why don’t you just ban everyone who doesn’t think like Ann and Quanell X. Malcoms little brother. Do you think the police would have got these guys if Joe didn’t? Joe you did the right thing. Keep on aiming high!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Barbary:
“On the other hand, I will not leave the safety of my home to go outside of my home and endanger my life”
Then your a coward.
Tell us Ann, would you leave the comfort and safety of your own home to stop a fight? A mugging? A rape? Only if its on your property, aye?”
No, I am not a coward, nor would I have behaved as Horn did, putting property above human life. The fact still remains that he should have left the alleged burglars to the police who were on their way to the scene, per the statements said by the dispatcher. Horn had many things he could have done; taking human life to protect property when his life was not in any immediate danger, now has him on the wrong side of the law. Under Texas law, you do still have the right to defend yourself if you are faced with rape, armed robbery, murder.
As for my leaving my home/property to come to the aid of another human being, yes, I would. Yes, I would help another human being whose life was under attack. Yes, I would protect to the best of my capabilities another human being crying out for help. Under no circumstances would I have behaved the way Horn did. HIS life was not under attack. He saw NO ONE attacking/raping/murdering anyone. Now he has to face the consequences of his actions.
No.
Cowards hide behind computer screens and refuse to face the facts that Horn went beyond the Texas self-defense laws. You have the right to protect yourself/others whose lives are in dire jeopardy. Horn will have to prove how he considered HIS life was under threat/attack.
“For historical perspective, in 1900 , an unamed hurricane roared through Galveston and killed over 6000 people. Men were caught looking under the dresses of dead women. They were lined up against a wall and shot.”
My question to you.
Were those so-called “men” white men? From my reading of the 1900 hurricane that took the lives of thousands, white men forced black men (at gunpoint) to retrieve dead bodies of hurricane victims (when those so-called white “men” could have worked in cooperation with black men to retrieve the bodies of ALL the dead from the hurricane), while many able-bodied white men stood by and raised not a hand to help recover bodies. White men at the time of the 1900 hurricane enlisted state and federal aid for white people, but none for black people.
Are those the so-called “men” of which you speak?
“Personally, if it was me, I would have ordered those two on the ground and if they resisted, knee capped’em. But that guy was scared I’m sure. No jury, unless it’s stacked with grievance ridden blacks, will convict him.”
And that is you. As for Horn’s being scared, remember he put himself into harm’s way. Unless he saw a woman/child being attacked, unless he saw a man held at gun/knife point, there was no reason for Horn to use deadly force.
“No jury, unless it’s stacked with grievance ridden blacks, will convict him.”
No.
The jury, regardless of racial composition, will convict Horn based of the evidence presented to them by the DA as well as to what is covered under the laws of Texas concerning reasonable/deadly force and the acts of ones actions that would lead up to any use of self-defense.
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skiz:
“Ann, seriously, you make me sick.”
Then I suggest you get yourself to a doctor, or failing that, take some Pep-To Bismol/Kaopectate for your ailing stomach, as well as some aspirin for your throbbing headache you have from making yourself sick.
“Joe Horn is a hero, A HERO!”
No, he is not.
He is a man who killed two men over property. He is a man who should have listened to the dispatcher and he would not be in the situation he is in now.
Unless he can prove that he was under attack, he faces imprisonment.
“If we all had neighbors like Mr. Horn, you would see the crime rate drop DRAMATICALLY. Guaranteed.”
I would not want a neighbor who runs out of his home, confronting two men who could have turned the tables on him.
“The crime rate would “drop DRAMATICALLY Guaranteed.”
And you have proof of this?
You have proof that human behavior after all of these tens of thousands of years will change?
Human behaviour has not changed so much where men do not rape women any longer, where men do not murder each other any longer, where men do not steal with the stroke of a pen (a la Ken Lay).
Until human behaviour evolves and changes “DRAMATICALLY”, I do not see where crime will ever go down, much less go away forever.
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brent:
“I will send Joe Horn money for his defense if needed.”
Great, because he sure will need it because of the bind he has put himself in, https://kathmanduk2.wordpress.com/2007/11/30/think-twice-before-using-deadly-force/
“Why don’t you just ban everyone who doesn’t think like Ann and Quanell X”
No, there’s no need for that. I ban those who show utter disrespect with name-calling. This is my blog, my house, my rules. You can’t come in turning over the furniture, pissing and shitting everywhere and think that I, said owner of this blog, will not lay down some ground rules. You (any commentor) who wishes to leave a comment is welcome to do so, even if in disagreement with me. But, I will not tolerate nasty behaviour. It is bad enough that many people (many of them, native Texans) are so ignorant of the law, much less have so much contempt for the law that seeks to protect them. It is even more worse for people not to realize the gravity of what this man did.
But, I will not tolerate hateful remarks that attack me instead of my comments.
Be men enough (or women enough) to intelligently state your views, and leave it at that. Name-calling only lessens your augument, as well as shows immature behaviour.
As for Horn, there is protecting yourself; and then there is going out of your way to kill just because you can.
Tell me, brent, if the tables were turned, if the following scenario played out:
Horn (a black man) shoots two UNARMED white male thieves coming out of his black neighbor’s home
would you still say that Mr. Black Horn should be hailed a “hero”?
Hmm?
Horn did not go out there with the intent to kill as you can tell by the fact that he says ‘move and your dead’, he went out there with the intent to detain the thieves until the Police got there. Had the two criminals stayed put until the Police arrived they’d still be alive.
Instead they tried to attack Mr. Horn who defended himself.
Kudos to Texas for having some laws that make sense and allow you to protect yourself. If only the rest of us had as much sense as you.
Does everyone forget about the Football player who was Just murdered in his own home??? You people defending these two scumbag theives, “who are probably illegal aliens” Need to be slapped. why do you think crime is constantly on the rise? Because of weak willed cuddley soft people like you who live in your gated community with 24 Hr security where something like this would never happen and you are constantly trying to be soft on crime. You people are so out of touch with reality that it astonishes me how you manage to stay alive yourself. Next you will say the families of these two mutts need to be compensated. Joe Horn is a hero and was excercising his constitutional rights. 20 years ago this wouldnt even be an issue. You liberals are slowley comminting suicide and the crooks, islamafacist, communists, and terrorists are giving you the rope, just dont try to drag me down with you.
Ann, you sound like you need a good dicking. That’s the only reason I could think of explaining why you’re such a dumb bitch. You think you’re so smart, trying to prove everyone wrong. This is America, land of the free, and home of the brave. A brave man is someone that will go out of his way, and put his life in danger to not only protect his family, friends, neighbors, etc, but also make his home and neighborhood a safer place. Horn is a hero, and we need more people in this country like him.
Go ahead and ban me, but at the end of the day, when you’re wondering why you have no friends except your cat, remember that you’re smarter than everyone else. That should make you feel better.
MODERATOR:
Your threats of rape against me, in addition to your denial of the truth definately gets you banned from my blog.
Protecting a person’s life is not a problem. Killing someone over property, when your life is not threatened or under attack, is never justified.
First off, I don’t know Quanell X– I have read some things about him, don’t know if their entirely true or not. You really can’t believe everything you read online….
Secondly, I live in Houston and I’ve heard about this man, he’s black and he’s Muslim. So am I, but I don’t know too much about these activist groups and really I’m not interested in them at all.
I heard about the Joe Horn case and I can’t say what Quanell X motives are, but until I hear or see different, I suppose their noble.
My feelings are as follows:
As a society we don’t need storm troopers running around and taking the law into their own hands.
What gave Joe Horn the right to kill two people who were NOT attacking him, were NOT on his property, and were NOT in any way a threat to his life?
If he really was trying to protect his home/neighborhood and thought his life was in danger—-one could understand his actions….but that simply wasn’t the case.
If we go by ”Horn’s” logic, every time someone with a gun notices someone doing something illegal, even if it’s NOT on their own property– they should have the right to kill them?
What kind of society would that be?
That’s why the citizens of Houston and activist (like Mr. X) have come together to denounce special treatment, murderers who take the law into their own hands, and to discourage any more storm troopers who think they’re above the law.
Personally, from reading this blog — I understand why activist like Mr. X have to come out and protest, because some of you guys want to give Mr. Horn a pass for violating the law….
I find it ironic that the people in Mr. Horn’s community were yelling at the protesters:
”USA–USA”, but who’s USA?
A white USA where you guys live by different rules or a USA where everyone lives by the same rules and follows the same laws?
Just listening to some of you guys–it’s no wonder why Joe Horn did what he did.
He figured he’ll get away with it because he’s white, and so far–he’s right, because he hasn’t been charged with anything. So, the judicial system in Pasadena is trying to give him a free ride–because he’s white–and the two people he killed in cold blood were dark skinned Latinos.
But, the bottom line is this…Joe Horn violated the law with his actions and based on what he did—he’s a murderer. If he’s not held accountable for his reckless and malicious murder of two people, what kind of precedent does that set for other possible storm troopers and trigger happy gun owners?
I applaud those who are protesting and making our community safer by rooting out people who are storm troopers with guns — waiting to take the law into their own hands . (dangerous people)
I can’t stress enough how dangerous these people are, how do we even know the two men who were shot were ”burglars”, their still listed as ”suspected burglars”, and dead men can’t talk.
It sucks that it had to come to this — And I have no problem with people protecting their homes and property. However, I’m convinced that Joe Horn is a dangerous person who looked for a license to kill….and he thought he found one, but he didn’t.
If the courts don’t get him, God will.
This is all a crock.. Joe did what he through was right.. Everyone knows this is what needed to happen.
(If) these men (30 and 48) not KIDS didn’t break-in to a home they wouldn’t have been shot.
(If) you hear a shotgun chamber a shell don’t be a moron and run.
(If) someone with any gun tells you to stop don’t run.
Anyone that has been broken into knows how it feels (it like being raped) having some person you don’t know in your personal stuff. I know that feeling and I would have been so happy if the man next door would have shot the fools.
My son got 10 years for breaking in a garage stealing tires, all I could say was good thing you didn’t get killed. He knew I would shot to kill if someone came in my home.
So all you morons that think Joe was in the wrong haven’t had this happen to them YET.
Charge Joe and get ready to be RAPED!!!! You’re giving them a free pass to break in your home and look you in the face and tell you that you can’t shoot me FOOL.
It’s way over due, we need to start taking our neighborhoods, city’s and states back. when I was young we never ever locked up the house, we would just tell our neighbors that we where going to be gone for a few days.
Look around when you drive in Texas, there are signs everywhere that say:
Don’t miss with Texas !
-BR-
“So all you morons that think Joe was in the wrong haven’t had this happen to them YET.”
There are those of us who HAVE had this happen to us, but, we did not take the law into our own hands the way Horn did.
“Anyone that has been broken into knows how it feels (it like being raped) having some person you don’t know in your personal stuff.”
“Charge Joe and get ready to be RAPED!!!!”
How is stealing property the same as being raped?
It is an insult to compare the stealing of property to rape, and a callous disregard towards all women, children and men who have been raped.
Property can be replaced, but the physical and psychological privacy of a raped individual can never be replaced.
Only an insensitive and cruel person can have the audacity to compare theft to the vicious crime of rape.
Until YOU experience rape, neither you nor anyone else can ever compare theft to the inhumane brutal crime of rape.
“You people defending these two scumbag theives, “who are probably illegal aliens” Need to be slapped.”
And that is relevant?
When enslaved black people were lynched, they weren’t really Americans either. When black people left the brutality of slavery, they STILL were not citizens in the eyes of Southern whites and the rest of America, and they were raped, tortured and lynched daily.
“Because of weak willed cuddley soft people like you who live in your gated community with 24 Hr security where something like this would never happen and you are constantly trying to be soft on crime.”
What proof do you have that commentors here live in gated communities? How is not leaving your home/property, going outside [after the dispatcher has asked you more than once], not to engage the suspected burglars, but, instead to let the police handle the situation, being “soft on crime”?
If anything, Horn showed weak-willed behaviour. His rendering a death-sentence on the suspected burglars showed his weakness in not listening to the dispatcher, not allowing the police to handle the situation and now he has to face up to his actions. He in advance *voluntarily* put himself into the position of potentially having to use lethal force on two strangers committing an act of burglary on someone else’s property.
No one is approving of what the suspected burglars are accused of. No one has stated that the suspected burglars had the right to break and enter the neighbor’s home. No one is letting them off the hook, and therein lies the crux of the matter. They are dead. Dead people CANNOT speak for themselves. The suspected burglars could have probably had other better options in life, other routes they could have taken, but either could not see them or chose this route because it was easier, or thought they had no other chances … but their part in this is no longer punishable, no longer can be redressed under the laws of Texas. They are gone. They cannot be brought back to life to hear their side of the story. Because of this, shifting the blame to them is a moot point. With their lives taken, we only have the word of Horn against these two dead men.
That so many people in Texas are calling this man a *hero* is beyond misplaced. It is abominable. I’m going to take the liberty to call what he did manslaughter, since I am convinced that the state of Texas will never convict him of murder. And I am being realistic there. If Horn is charged, and convicted of murder, I will be shocked. I cannot belive that the justice system in Texas is that much evolved. Because of how the judge/jury may decide this case, [if the court decides in Horn’s favor], Texas may end up with a whole bunch of trigger-happy people shooting strangers on other people’s property.
Strangers who could be a friend of the neighbor, a relative of the neighbor—-SOMEONE who may have not been committing a crime of any kind—-if only because they looked SUSPICIOUS.
And Texas already has a shoot-to-kill mentality as it is. This state still has a long way to go to catch up with the rest of the civilized world.
Bottom line:
Your actions have cause, effect and consequences.
I am sure Joe Horn is realizing that in many ways he did not think his actions would lead to this scenario, but, then again, he may have thought that he was above the law.
There are TWO kinds of people who purchase/own a gun:
There are people who purchase/own a gun, to use it as protection, hoping that they will never, ever have to use it in an act of deadly force against anyone, because they would rather have to use that weapon as a last resort.
Then there are people who purchase/own a gun because they fantasize, long for, wet-dream about using it. Because they can’t wait to destroy someone, ANYONE with their lethal weapon.
Only Horn knows which category he falls into.
To BR:
Yes, I have had my home broken into. I have had my property stolen over the years both on the job, and from my vehicle. Yes, even though it will mean nothing to you, I know of more than one person who has been raped.
Those wrongs done to me have not caused me to turn against all humans in this world.
The facts remain the same: Horn took the law into his hands.
If he is charged with manslaughter, I will be shocked.
To Ann
Ok so maybe the wording is not quite right, change the word Rape to Violated. I know that’s how I felt. From you answer you have never had someone breaking your home. I’m also sure you haven’t been raped or even know anyone who has.
-BR-
We all have the right to own a gun and use it if we are in fear of our life. How many kids have been shot by police just because they had something in thier hand or like the girl that was wearing a silver band ?
I don’t think or feel that Joe Horn is one of the only two types of people you call gun owners. He is 61 years old, do you really think he would have waited this long to us it if the only reason to own it was to shoot someone?
Mr Joe Horn is a out right murderer!!!!!!
This man should have called 911 and told them of the break in at his neighbors home, that was as far as his responsibility went. He in fact called 911 and told them he was not going to let them get away, and he did just that with no regards to what the 911 operator tried to tell him. The fact that these men were shoot in the back makes Mr Joe Horn a killer and should be put in jail. Of course his Pasadena neighbors holds him in high regards,
they have been killing people in Pasadena for years and getting away with it. In this case justoce needs to be served.
according to texas law joe horn had the right to use deadly force to stop them even if they were fleeing.
9.41. PROTECTION OF ONE’S OWN PROPERTY. (a) A person
in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is
justified in using force against another when and to the degree the
actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to
prevent or terminate the other’s trespass on the land or unlawful
interference with the property.
(b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible,
movable property by another is justified in using force against the
other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force
is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the
property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit
after the dispossession
A few considerations:
1. The 911 dispatcher was not a law enforcement professional and had no legal authority to order Mr. Horn to abandon use of his property. None. Nada. Zero. Zilch. (In fact, there has been a bit of scandal lately in that some places in this same part of Texas are hiring dispatchers that barely graduated high school and have no enforcement or medical training at all.)
2. Texas has recently expanded the applicability of the “Castle Doctrine”, following a trend in the majority of the states to increase personal property rights. Under this principle, the property owner is *not* legally required to retreat or otherwise abandon use of property to someone who is in the act of committing a felony.
3. Texas Penal code 9.41 and 9.43 authorize use of force to defend ones own personal property *or* that of a third party, even in daytime, especially if it appears likely that the property will not otherwise be recoverable. There is only a 10% catch rate on burglaries, and actually recovering property intact is slightly lower than that.
4. All citizens have the righto make a citizens arrest to restrain an offender until law enforcement arrives when catchign someone in the act of a felony, and are specifically authorized to use force to do so.
5. At the time Mr. Horn went out onto his *own* front porch and discovered the burglars were making their escape through his own yard, there were law enforcement officials visibly on scene.
6. There was a plainclothes officer that arrived on scene as the shootings happened. However, the Pasadena, Texas P.D. has changed their time line of what happened as that officer arrived a couple of times since the shooting, even weeks after the fact. It bears pointing out that Mr. Horn was not detained under suspicion of having committed a crime even though there was a police officer on the scene as the trigger was pulled
7. On that note, the Pasadena PD has clarified that he didn’t “exactly” shoot the felons in the back. At no point has the Pasadena P.D. ever made a statement themselves that indicated the felons were running straight away from Mr. Horn. The “shot in the back” angle is a media invention designed to play on emotions, which this blog has proven to be a successful strategy.
8. The false dichotomy painted about the types of gun owners (again to try to play on emotions) is precisely that: false.
If you follow the logic of some of these people who want Joe Horn put in Jail…
If a rape had been happening in the yard next door to Mr Horn he should have stayed in his house he should not even have gone out the door and walked to his property line and asked the raper to get of the person he was rapeing.
The crimminals died it was a good day.
JOE HORN WILL BE KILLED ANYWAY THIS THING TURNS OUT,THAT IS A FACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think we should all chip in and pay to have these two guys mounted so Joe Horn can hang them on his wall after he is elected Mayor of Pasadena.
Please explain to me how my comments are racist. I am and EOH. Equal opportunity hater. I hate people based on their actions not color. Criminals are criminals no matter what color they are. I would bet you $10 that Horn was not thinking I need to stop these black guys from robbing my neighbor.
You only have to listen to Houston radio to find out why I believe that QX does more harm than good. He has on several occasions picked up criminals, defying police orders, and come out in support of criminals. These are facts, do your own research. Google works great. There have been a few issues that QX has come out on that I was glad to see him involved, but this is not the norm. Why do I need to know every black person in Houston to come to this conclusion? I have never seen him come out in support of a black hero, cop, fireman, or successful person. QX involvement in this case is only going to divide us more because when he shows up it becomes a race issue. Most people did not even know the race of the criminals until he showed up to make an issue. I did not know until he showed up. Do you honestly believe he would be involved if the two criminals were white, Vietnamese, Chinese, Japanese, or even Hispanic? I have seen no evidence that would make me think he would.
As far as Horn is concerned, is it not reasonable to think that he was fearful that the two criminals would return to his home next? Maybe he had you in mind when he did what he did. Maybe he was concerned for Ann’s well being, property, family, safety because if they were not stopped they could have been on their way to your house or maybe someone in your family. I do not wish the two criminals dead but the life of crime has its consequences, and they paid for it this time, luckily no innocent person had to pay for it.
Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton are no different that QX. Show up when they can get on TV; make a mess and leave no matter the facts on the case; just asked the kids from Duke University. They were publicly smeared by the two and never received any public apologies or support when the fact of the case came out. They never came out against the black girl involved. They came out and got a guy fired because of a retarded commit he made on the radio. It was a stupid commit, racist if you like, but not worth loosing his job. It is not illegal to be racist, unintelligent, but not illegal. They came out and got a lady punish for a comment about how to stop Tiger Woods, which we all know is not possible. It would have gone unnoticed and irrelevant until they showed up. Even Tiger has come out in support of the lady.
If you think you need to ban me from you site please do. Racism does exist, but not in my words. Hate breads hate, racism bread racism. Until people stop preaching it, promoting it, making money off it it will never end. A divided people are easier to defeat and control, an undivided people are unconquerable. An American by any other name is no American at all and until people wake up to that fact we are doomed as a nation of the free.
I guess you could say these men died doing their job, the only skill they knew. Some professions are inherently dangerous and the rewards don’t always justify the risks. Some people think it’s fine to rob the “haves”, fair game, easy money. Their lifestyle choice led to this conclusion. NOBODYS fault but their own.
Grand jury hearing the case right now.
Joe Horn will be “no billed” is my prediction. This is a good thing. Joe Horn, whether you agree with his actions or not, stood against evil.
(The following was from a news article)
KTRK legal analyst Joel Androphy points out, charges or not, an indictment against Horn is unlikely, and a conviction is even more improbable.
“This is a defense lawyer’s dream type of case, because you’ll never get 12 people to say that he acted inappropriately,” Androphy said.
Androphy believes that’s part of the reason prosecutors have yet to present their evidence to a grand jury and push for an indictment against Horn.
He said, “Obviously, what’s taking so long is the DA’s office probably does not want to charge Mr. Horn because they don’t think he committed a crime, or they don’t think they’ll get a conviction, which is the most important thing.”
As expected, Joe Horn was not indicted by the Grand Jury.
Now if they will just jail his girlfriend for harboring a criminal all will be right with this case.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/hotstories/5864151.html
This calls for champagne!!!
John Doe said that “JOE HORN WILL BE KILLED ANYWAY THIS THING TURNS OUT,THAT IS A FACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
He might be right but so far the score is
Joe 2
illegal criminal scum 0
My money is on Joe
People who come down here from the north and piss and moan about the way things are here in Texas need to take their whiney yankee asses back up north. We sure as heck don’t want you here. We could only be so proud and fortunate to have a neighbor like Mr. Horn!
my hope is dwindling. people are so dependant that our systems that we doom them to failure. law enforcement was etablished as a way to help keep the peace. “help”. we cannot expect this idea to succeed if we rely soley on it.
if your 82 year old neighbor was getting beaten in if front yard, i hope u would do more than call the police and watch the brutality continue from your yard.
joe horns neighbors were helpless to defend there property that they worked hard for. i would hope somebody would defend that for them. to beleive that u should stand there and let this happen,when u have the power to stop it, for no other reason than the health of the two men causing so much pain? they are not innocent victims they made a choice knowing that in no context was it right or just.
joe horn was not the judge and jury, nobody can relate him to that, he was the made who stopped a crime in progress, with the only means availible. it appeared to police would not be there in time so he had to stop this from happening, its clear that he had waited just as long as possible before saving his neighbors from being victims. and to the protesters who want to talk about race, please grow a backbone and adress the real issues instead of hiding behind race. its just lazy and insulting to both sides
I FUCKING HATE Quanell X. any body who sticks up for these criminals need to be shot too
Horn did the right thing if two middle aged men where breaking into a house that was under my watch I would have gotten my phone and called 911 now for the women who siad so eager to shoot she should disrespect the man who was clearly robbing someone’s house horn shouldn’t be hated for the things he did he should be rewarded for what he did who knows those men could have gone and killed people and taken there stuff Mr Horn you did well.